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Re: Training PEC with a CCD ?Thanks for all help !


Mar 15, 2005

 


----------------------------

#24717 Mar 15, 2005

HI Guys



Have had my G11 now for a few months and finaly housed it in its

observatory, im now going through the mounts setup, fine adjusting

mount with drift and pec, ready for ccd work when I had a crazy idea

could you do PEC training on a G11 /GEMINI 3 GOTO using a CCD???. has

anyone done this ??? Im using a SBIG ST10XME on a AP152 F9 STARFIRE

and the softwear for ccd work im using is Maxlm dl 4.3.

Would welcome any feedback on this



Regards Martin Stirland



----------------------------

#24718 Mar 15, 2005

Martin,



Of course you can! In fact, it's the best way to go. For PEC

training, you can choose any guidestar that you want, put it on the

main chip, start guiding, and then start PEC training.



Allen G.



--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "martin stirland"

domehome@u...> wrote: >

> HI Guys

>

> Have had my G11 now for a few months and finaly housed it in its

> observatory, im now going through the mounts setup, fine adjusting

> mount with drift and pec, ready for ccd work when I had a crazy

idea > could you do PEC training on a G11 /GEMINI 3 GOTO using a CCD???.

has > anyone done this ??? Im using a SBIG ST10XME on a AP152 F9 STARFIRE

> and the softwear for ccd work im using is Maxlm dl 4.3.

> Would welcome any feedback on this

>

> Regards Martin Stirland



----------------------------

#24720 Mar 15, 2005

Martin;



Something to remember when you try to train PEC with your Guider. Keep

your guider exposures longer than you normally would for guiding. I don't

know what Gemini's limit is but there was at one time, with other mounts, a

limit to the number of guiding corrections PEC could remember in one

training session. If you exceded that number either it would wrap around

and overwrite the beginning or just stop recoring the corrections when it

reached the limit. My old Losmandy GM-100 would only accept ~250

corrections in 4mins. I could and did excede that count manually entering

corrections by hand.



I've heard other concerns raised about this subject. One is you have

to train each session because if you turned on PEC at a different place in

the Worm's cycle the corrections would not match the recorded corrections.

PEC should also be trained for different points in the sky too. The other

problem is the guider could fight with PEC and introduce errors.



I never use PEC, I've always relied upon my guider, my old trusty ST-4

when I was doing film, and now my internal guiding chip on the CCD.



Good luck, you're going to enjoy your observatory setup...joe :)





"May You Go Among The Imperishable Stars"



Joe Mize: jmize@...

StarFields Observatory www.cav-sfo.com

Chiefland, FL 29:24'33.4"N 82:51'37.7"W

Moon Phase: tycho.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/phase.gif

----- Original Message -----

From: "martin stirland" domehome@...>

To: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:34 AM

Subject: [Losmandy_users] PEC WITH A CCD ???





>

>

> HI Guys

>

> Have had my G11 now for a few months and finaly housed it in its

> observatory, im now going through the mounts setup, fine adjusting

> mount with drift and pec, ready for ccd work when I had a crazy idea

> could you do PEC training on a G11 /GEMINI 3 GOTO using a CCD???. has

> anyone done this ??? Im using a SBIG ST10XME on a AP152 F9 STARFIRE

> and the softwear for ccd work im using is Maxlm dl 4.3.

> Would welcome any feedback on this

>

> Regards Martin Stirland

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>



----------------------------

#24724 Mar 15, 2005

Martin,



I have had limited sucess with getting the PEC function to work. I

have tried to program it with my St8xe guide chip.



The training seemed to go well but I noticed a couple of odd things.

While I was setting up to program and was pressing buttons on the

hand controller to get to the train command, the guid chip signals

that were guiding on a star would get erratic. I had the guiding

graph up and could see the corrections.



The corrections would then settle down when the recording process

would start. When a countdown was required to wait for the worm to

return to the beginning of the cycle for recording, the recording

seemed to be better because the delay was allowing the guide star

signals to settle down.



Once I got a clean recording I tried and could not see a very

noticable image quality improvment. I guess I may have noted some

improvement but I can't say I was thrilled. I counted the experiment

as a failure and would be curious to know if anyone out there has

been sucessfull at the use of PEC.



--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "martin stirland"

domehome@u...> wrote: >

> HI Guys

>

> Have had my G11 now for a few months and finaly housed it in its

> observatory, im now going through the mounts setup, fine adjusting

> mount with drift and pec, ready for ccd work when I had a crazy

idea > could you do PEC training on a G11 /GEMINI 3 GOTO using a CCD???.

has > anyone done this ??? Im using a SBIG ST10XME on a AP152 F9 STARFIRE

> and the softwear for ccd work im using is Maxlm dl 4.3.

> Would welcome any feedback on this

>

> Regards Martin Stirland







----------------------------

#24733 Mar 16, 2005

Hi

Thanks guys for the info will look into this further, some great

points raised will try it out soon as we get another clear sky here

in the uk.

I have been producing some images with the G11 and with further

tweeks to the basic mount ie drift and pec have notice improvments

along the way....I cant rate the G11 and Gem3 setup any better its

just a breeze to use even at this stage, and hope to pull more out of

it as we both get to know each other better lol

I have a web site with some of the ccd work im doing and of the

observatories and scopes I use

www.zyworld.com/domehome



your welcome to have a look round any feed back/comments welcome



Regards Martin Stirland

--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "joe" jmize@s...> wrote:

> Martin;

>

> Something to remember when you try to train PEC with your

Guider. Keep

> your guider exposures longer than you normally would for guiding.

I don't

> know what Gemini's limit is but there was at one time, with other

mounts, a

> limit to the number of guiding corrections PEC could remember in

one

> training session. If you exceded that number either it would wrap

around

> and overwrite the beginning or just stop recoring the corrections

when it

> reached the limit. My old Losmandy GM-100 would only accept ~250

> corrections in 4mins. I could and did excede that count manually

entering

> corrections by hand.

>

> I've heard other concerns raised about this subject. One is

you have

> to train each session because if you turned on PEC at a different

place in

> the Worm's cycle the corrections would not match the recorded

corrections.

> PEC should also be trained for different points in the sky too.

The other

> problem is the guider could fight with PEC and introduce errors.

>

> I never use PEC, I've always relied upon my guider, my old

trusty ST-4

> when I was doing film, and now my internal guiding chip on the CCD.

>

> Good luck, you're going to enjoy your observatory

setup...joe :)

>

>

> "May You Go Among The Imperishable Stars"

>

> Joe Mize: jmize@s...

> StarFields Observatory www.cav-sfo.com

> Chiefland, FL 29:24'33.4"N 82:51'37.7"W

> Moon Phase: tycho.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/phase.gif

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "martin stirland" domehome@u...>

> To: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com>

> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 9:34 AM

> Subject: [Losmandy_users] PEC WITH A CCD ???

>

>

> >

> >

> > HI Guys

> >

> > Have had my G11 now for a few months and finaly housed it in its

> > observatory, im now going through the mounts setup, fine adjusting

> > mount with drift and pec, ready for ccd work when I had a crazy

idea

> > could you do PEC training on a G11 /GEMINI 3 GOTO using a CCD???.

has

> > anyone done this ??? Im using a SBIG ST10XME on a AP152 F9

STARFIRE

> > and the softwear for ccd work im using is Maxlm dl 4.3.

> > Would welcome any feedback on this

> >

> > Regards Martin Stirland

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >



----------------------------

#29724 May 11, 2006

When going thru the old posts I couldnt find an answer

if it.s possible to train PEC with my ST2000XM ?

Do I have to use an eyepiece with crosshairs ?

I apologize if this question has been posted before.

Regards

Timo Nordberg

www.astroswede.com



----------------------------

#29725 May 11, 2006

You can train PEC with a CCD - no worries.



- Greg



-----Original Message-----

From: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com] On

Behalf Of Timo Eric

Sent: Thursday, 11 May 2006 10:14 PM

To: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Losmandy_users] Training PEC with a CCD ?



When going thru the old posts I couldnt find an answer

if it.s possible to train PEC with my ST2000XM ?

Do I have to use an eyepiece with crosshairs ?

I apologize if this question has been posted before.

Regards

Timo Nordberg

www.astroswede.com

















Yahoo! Groups Links



----------------------------

#29726 May 11, 2006

Thanks for your reply Greg !

But doesn.t scintillation and imbalance influence on the result ?

Am I wrong here ? It seems that it wont be training PEC only ?And

scintillation and imbalance varies from time to time.

Confusing ........



Timo



--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Crawford" gc@...>

wrote: >

> You can train PEC with a CCD - no worries.

>

> - Greg

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Timo Eric

> Sent: Thursday, 11 May 2006 10:14 PM

> To: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [Losmandy_users] Training PEC with a CCD ?

>

> When going thru the old posts I couldnt find an answer

> if it.s possible to train PEC with my ST2000XM ?

> Do I have to use an eyepiece with crosshairs ?

> I apologize if this question has been posted before.

> Regards

> Timo Nordberg

> www.astroswede.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>







----------------------------

#29728 May 11, 2006

That's a question about autoguiding, not about training PEC. Yes, you can

train PEC with an autoguider. If you do not want the autoguider to chase the

seeing, then you need to arrive at an optimal set of autoguiding parameters.

Here is a good place to start:



acp4.dc3.com/McMillanAutoguiding11-2005.pdf



Also, some fascinating information about PEMPro, if you have a Gemini:



www.siriusimaging.com/Help/PEMPro/index.htm#RCX400CaseStudy.htm



Cheers,

Paul S.



--- Timo Eric mybrightstar@...> wrote:

>

> Thanks for your reply Greg !

> But doesn.t scintillation and imbalance influence on the result ?

> Am I wrong here ? It seems that it wont be training PEC only ?And

> scintillation and imbalance varies from time to time.

> Confusing ........

>

> Timo

>

> --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Crawford" gc@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > You can train PEC with a CCD - no worries.

> >

> > - Greg

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com

> [mailto:Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com] On

> > Behalf Of Timo Eric

> > Sent: Thursday, 11 May 2006 10:14 PM

> > To: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com

> > Subject: [Losmandy_users] Training PEC with a CCD ?

> >

> > When going thru the old posts I couldnt find an answer

> > if it.s possible to train PEC with my ST2000XM ?

> > Do I have to use an eyepiece with crosshairs ?

> > I apologize if this question has been posted before.

> > Regards

> > Timo Nordberg

> > www.astroswede.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

>

>

>

>

>







---------------

Do You Yahoo!?

Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

mail.yahoo.com



----------------------------

#29732 May 11, 2006

If you use Pempro, it will factor scintillation out by comparing common PE

>patterns. Pempro even figures the delay in response from the seen error till

>the correction and adjusts the timing accordingly.



It's true that PEMPro will do these things. It's also true that I use PEMPro,

because I am a visual person and like its visual interface. However, Gemini

itself will average a number of guiding runs; and also offer to smooth out the

final curve; in order to filter out scintillation effects. Gemini also has the

ability to advance corrections to counter the "after-the-fact" nature of guiding

detection of PE.



- Greg



----------------------------

#29733 May 11, 2006

I have been thinking about Pempro and now I understand the

benefits of the program.

(Yes, I have the new Gemini mount.)

Thanks again ! What would we do without all the help from you

kind people in this group :-)

Timo Nordberg





--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, Paul Sterngold

psterngold@...> wrote: >

> That's a question about autoguiding, not about training PEC. Yes,

you can > train PEC with an autoguider. If you do not want the autoguider

to chase the > seeing, then you need to arrive at an optimal set of autoguiding

parameters. > Here is a good place to start:

>

> acp4.dc3.com/McMillanAutoguiding11-2005.pdf

>

> Also, some fascinating information about PEMPro, if you have a

Gemini: >

>

www.siriusimaging.com/Help/PEMPro/index.htm#RCX400CaseStudy.ht

m >

> Cheers,

> Paul S.

>

> --- Timo Eric mybrightstar@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Thanks for your reply Greg !

> > But doesn.t scintillation and imbalance influence on the result ?

> > Am I wrong here ? It seems that it wont be training PEC only ?

And > > scintillation and imbalance varies from time to time.

> > Confusing ........

> >

> > Timo

> >

> > --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Crawford" gc@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > You can train PEC with a CCD - no worries.

> > >

> > > - Greg

> > >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com

> > [mailto:Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com] On

> > > Behalf Of Timo Eric

> > > Sent: Thursday, 11 May 2006 10:14 PM

> > > To: Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com

> > > Subject: [Losmandy_users] Training PEC with a CCD ?

> > >

> > > When going thru the old posts I couldnt find an answer

> > > if it.s possible to train PEC with my ST2000XM ?

> > > Do I have to use an eyepiece with crosshairs ?

> > > I apologize if this question has been posted before.

> > > Regards

> > > Timo Nordberg

> > > www.astroswede.com

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Yahoo! Groups Links

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

---------------

> Do You Yahoo!?

> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

> mail.yahoo.com

>







----------------------------

#29743 May 12, 2006

PEMPro does a great job training out PE, but it has an even greater

benefit for me.



All of my gear is on wheely bars and rolls out onto the deck each

night. Therefore I have to do a polar alignment more or less from

scratch. PEMPro is a great tool for polar aligning with the drift

method. Just turn off the "correct for drify in X" (or Y) and it

quickly shows (30s or less) how much drift there is in DEC. I can get a

darn accurate drift alignment in about 10 minutes.



Maybe this could be done visually, but I find this method very

appealing. I don't ever have to remove my camera from the scope.



Wayne



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