VintageBigBlue.org

 

Re: PE of around 35 peak to peak, and no I haven't forgotten the decimal point.


Apr 1, 2013

 


----------------------------

#52567 Apr 1, 2013

Hi Guys

Ok, so I got around to measuring my PE and holy moly, 35 peak to peak.

I must be doing something wrong, that cant be right. I've attached my

PemPro file in the files sections under the folder "Sandy's PemPro

files" if you care to have a look.

I guess I should start trying to find out firstly what issues I bring to

the set up and if I eliminate all possible variables from the equation

then we should be left with an answer as to what is going on. Polar

alignment is good, I aligned using PemPro to with in 2 arc mins in both

axis and verified with drifting for an hour. had small amount of drift

as expected due to being out by a couple of minutes, but the drift after

an hour was minimal.

Balance is good, I spent quite a bit of time on this the day before. I

have a 102 refractor and a Orion ST guide scope with a Meade DSI as

guide camera. Canon 7D attached to the main scope. Scopes are on a

Losmandy side by side bar, pretty much zero flexure. The load is very

light, perhaps too light??

When I'm doing a PEC run I use the guide scope not the main scope. Even

though I've replaced the plastic screws that came with the guide scope

rings, this could be my weakest link. Perhaps I'll try a run tomorrow

using the main scope as the mounting to the side bar is much more solid.

Mount is level, double checked. In fact if I check again I think I may

be in danger of developing an obsessive compulsive disorder.

I have the mount on a concrete slab in the back yard and to ensure that

the slab does not move I have placed a very heavy weight on one side of

the slab next to the mount to ensure that if there is any movement that

weight will hopefully return the slab to a default state. I should note

that I have not noticed any movement in slab. I'm just being cautious.

Cables are neat, none are dragging or sagging and none of the cables are

tight. I have placed some 3m stick on cable management eyelets on the

mount so I can neatly run the cables down from the scopes to the

computer.

I've made several pec records and all have the same high PEC value.

Can anyone point to some things that could be contributing to this other

than the worm? Here is a link to the folder containing my pec record

file, I've removed the reference you will need to reinsert.

tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Losmandy_users/files/Sandy%27s%20PeMpro%20fi\

les/

ThanksSandy









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



----------------------------

#52569 Apr 1, 2013

Hi Sandy,



Have you tried taking some unguided images to see if the star trail lengths agree with the PemPro results?





Gale

--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "spacecadet297" sandybrown1973@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Guys

> Ok, so I got around to measuring my PE and holy moly, 35 peak to peak.

> I must be doing something wrong, that cant be right. I've attached my

> PemPro file in the files sections under the folder "Sandy's PemPro

> files" if you care to have a look.

> I guess I should start trying to find out firstly what issues I bring to

> the set up and if I eliminate all possible variables from the equation

> then we should be left with an answer as to what is going on. Polar

> alignment is good, I aligned using PemPro to with in 2 arc mins in both

> axis and verified with drifting for an hour. had small amount of drift

> as expected due to being out by a couple of minutes, but the drift after

> an hour was minimal.

> Balance is good, I spent quite a bit of time on this the day before. I

> have a 102 refractor and a Orion ST guide scope with a Meade DSI as

> guide camera. Canon 7D attached to the main scope. Scopes are on a

> Losmandy side by side bar, pretty much zero flexure. The load is very

> light, perhaps too light??

> When I'm doing a PEC run I use the guide scope not the main scope. Even

> though I've replaced the plastic screws that came with the guide scope

> rings, this could be my weakest link. Perhaps I'll try a run tomorrow

> using the main scope as the mounting to the side bar is much more solid.

> Mount is level, double checked. In fact if I check again I think I may

> be in danger of developing an obsessive compulsive disorder.

> I have the mount on a concrete slab in the back yard and to ensure that

> the slab does not move I have placed a very heavy weight on one side of

> the slab next to the mount to ensure that if there is any movement that

> weight will hopefully return the slab to a default state. I should note

> that I have not noticed any movement in slab. I'm just being cautious.

> Cables are neat, none are dragging or sagging and none of the cables are

> tight. I have placed some 3m stick on cable management eyelets on the

> mount so I can neatly run the cables down from the scopes to the

> computer.

> I've made several pec records and all have the same high PEC value.

> Can anyone point to some things that could be contributing to this other

> than the worm? Here is a link to the folder containing my pec record

> file, I've removed the reference you will need to reinsert.

> tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Losmandy_users/files/Sandy%27s%20PeMpro%20fi\

> les/

> ThanksSandy

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>







----------------------------

#52570 Apr 1, 2013

No, but thanks for the suggestion. I'll try that tonight.



Thanks

Sandy



On Tuesday, 2 April 2013, Gale wrote:



> **

>

>

> Hi Sandy,

>

> Have you tried taking some unguided images to see if the star trail

> lengths agree with the PemPro results?

>

> Gale

>

> --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',

> 'Losmandy_users%40yahoogroups.com');>, "spacecadet297" sandybrown1973@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Guys

> > Ok, so I got around to measuring my PE and holy moly, 35 peak to peak.

> > I must be doing something wrong, that cant be right. I've attached my

> > PemPro file in the files sections under the folder "Sandy's PemPro

> > files" if you care to have a look.

> > I guess I should start trying to find out firstly what issues I bring to

> > the set up and if I eliminate all possible variables from the equation

> > then we should be left with an answer as to what is going on. Polar

> > alignment is good, I aligned using PemPro to with in 2 arc mins in both

> > axis and verified with drifting for an hour. had small amount of drift

> > as expected due to being out by a couple of minutes, but the drift after

> > an hour was minimal.

> > Balance is good, I spent quite a bit of time on this the day before. I

> > have a 102 refractor and a Orion ST guide scope with a Meade DSI as

> > guide camera. Canon 7D attached to the main scope. Scopes are on a

> > Losmandy side by side bar, pretty much zero flexure. The load is very

> > light, perhaps too light??

> > When I'm doing a PEC run I use the guide scope not the main scope. Even

> > though I've replaced the plastic screws that came with the guide scope

> > rings, this could be my weakest link. Perhaps I'll try a run tomorrow

> > using the main scope as the mounting to the side bar is much more solid.

> > Mount is level, double checked. In fact if I check again I think I may

> > be in danger of developing an obsessive compulsive disorder.

> > I have the mount on a concrete slab in the back yard and to ensure that

> > the slab does not move I have placed a very heavy weight on one side of

> > the slab next to the mount to ensure that if there is any movement that

> > weight will hopefully return the slab to a default state. I should note

> > that I have not noticed any movement in slab. I'm just being cautious.

> > Cables are neat, none are dragging or sagging and none of the cables are

> > tight. I have placed some 3m stick on cable management eyelets on the

> > mount so I can neatly run the cables down from the scopes to the

> > computer.

> > I've made several pec records and all have the same high PEC value.

> > Can anyone point to some things that could be contributing to this other

> > than the worm? Here is a link to the folder containing my pec record

> > file, I've removed the reference you will need to reinsert.

> >

> tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Losmandy_users/files/Sandy%27s%20PeMpro%20fi\tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Losmandy_users/files/Sandy%27s%20PeMpro%20fi%5C>

> > les/

> > ThanksSandy

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>

>

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



----------------------------

#52580 Apr 1, 2013

Hi Sandy,



Yep, sorry, looks like your PE is around 35 arcseconds peak to peak. It does appear, though, that nearly all of it is contained in the first fundamental frequency, which should be easily programmed out by PemPro.



I think once you do program PEC, you'll find your overall PE reduced by a huge amount.



By the way, you may want to swap the DEC and RA worms to see if the other one has a lower PE, since PE is not as much of an issue for DEC axis.



Regards,



-Paul

--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "spacecadet297" sandybrown1973@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Guys

> Ok, so I got around to measuring my PE and holy moly, 35 peak to peak.

> I must be doing something wrong, that cant be right. I've attached my

> PemPro file in the files sections under the folder "Sandy's PemPro

> files" if you care to have a look.

> I guess I should start trying to find out firstly what issues I bring to

> the set up and if I eliminate all possible variables from the equation

> then we should be left with an answer as to what is going on. Polar

> alignment is good, I aligned using PemPro to with in 2 arc mins in both

> axis and verified with drifting for an hour. had small amount of drift

> as expected due to being out by a couple of minutes, but the drift after

> an hour was minimal.

> Balance is good, I spent quite a bit of time on this the day before. I

> have a 102 refractor and a Orion ST guide scope with a Meade DSI as

> guide camera. Canon 7D attached to the main scope. Scopes are on a

> Losmandy side by side bar, pretty much zero flexure. The load is very

> light, perhaps too light??

> When I'm doing a PEC run I use the guide scope not the main scope. Even

> though I've replaced the plastic screws that came with the guide scope

> rings, this could be my weakest link. Perhaps I'll try a run tomorrow

> using the main scope as the mounting to the side bar is much more solid.

> Mount is level, double checked. In fact if I check again I think I may

> be in danger of developing an obsessive compulsive disorder.

> I have the mount on a concrete slab in the back yard and to ensure that

> the slab does not move I have placed a very heavy weight on one side of

> the slab next to the mount to ensure that if there is any movement that

> weight will hopefully return the slab to a default state. I should note

> that I have not noticed any movement in slab. I'm just being cautious.

> Cables are neat, none are dragging or sagging and none of the cables are

> tight. I have placed some 3m stick on cable management eyelets on the

> mount so I can neatly run the cables down from the scopes to the

> computer.

> I've made several pec records and all have the same high PEC value.

> Can anyone point to some things that could be contributing to this other

> than the worm? Here is a link to the folder containing my pec record

> file, I've removed the reference you will need to reinsert.

> tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Losmandy_users/files/Sandy%27s%20PeMpro%20fi\

> les/

> ThanksSandy

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>







----------------------------

#52581 Apr 1, 2013

Hi Sandy,



My G11/G2 had a PE of about 20 arcseconds peak to peak. I switched the RA and DEC worms, that seemed to help a little. Then last night I tried using the string/weight (2.5 pounds) method to ensure a consistant and firm east side bias at all times. The PE dropped to about 4 arcsec p-p!





Gale

--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "paulkccd" yh@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Sandy,

>

> Yep, sorry, looks like your PE is around 35 arcseconds peak to peak. It does appear, though, that nearly all of it is contained in the first fundamental frequency, which should be easily programmed out by PemPro.

>

> I think once you do program PEC, you'll find your overall PE reduced by a huge amount.

>

> By the way, you may want to swap the DEC and RA worms to see if the other one has a lower PE, since PE is not as much of an issue for DEC axis.

>

> Regards,

>

> -Paul

>

> --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "spacecadet297" sandybrown1973@> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Guys

> > Ok, so I got around to measuring my PE and holy moly, 35 peak to peak.

> > I must be doing something wrong, that cant be right. I've attached my

> > PemPro file in the files sections under the folder "Sandy's PemPro

> > files" if you care to have a look.

> > I guess I should start trying to find out firstly what issues I bring to

> > the set up and if I eliminate all possible variables from the equation

> > then we should be left with an answer as to what is going on. Polar

> > alignment is good, I aligned using PemPro to with in 2 arc mins in both

> > axis and verified with drifting for an hour. had small amount of drift

> > as expected due to being out by a couple of minutes, but the drift after

> > an hour was minimal.

> > Balance is good, I spent quite a bit of time on this the day before. I

> > have a 102 refractor and a Orion ST guide scope with a Meade DSI as

> > guide camera. Canon 7D attached to the main scope. Scopes are on a

> > Losmandy side by side bar, pretty much zero flexure. The load is very

> > light, perhaps too light??

> > When I'm doing a PEC run I use the guide scope not the main scope. Even

> > though I've replaced the plastic screws that came with the guide scope

> > rings, this could be my weakest link. Perhaps I'll try a run tomorrow

> > using the main scope as the mounting to the side bar is much more solid.

> > Mount is level, double checked. In fact if I check again I think I may

> > be in danger of developing an obsessive compulsive disorder.

> > I have the mount on a concrete slab in the back yard and to ensure that

> > the slab does not move I have placed a very heavy weight on one side of

> > the slab next to the mount to ensure that if there is any movement that

> > weight will hopefully return the slab to a default state. I should note

> > that I have not noticed any movement in slab. I'm just being cautious.

> > Cables are neat, none are dragging or sagging and none of the cables are

> > tight. I have placed some 3m stick on cable management eyelets on the

> > mount so I can neatly run the cables down from the scopes to the

> > computer.

> > I've made several pec records and all have the same high PEC value.

> > Can anyone point to some things that could be contributing to this other

> > than the worm? Here is a link to the folder containing my pec record

> > file, I've removed the reference you will need to reinsert.

> > tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Losmandy_users/files/Sandy%27s%20PeMpro%20fi\

> > les/

> > ThanksSandy

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>



----------------------------

#52584 Apr 2, 2013

Thanks guys,



I've spoken to te store that I purchased the mount from they are going to

take a look at it for me. To say I'm gutted is an understatement. I've

wanted this mount for the past 5 years.



I rebalanced the scope tonight to make sure there was a good amount of east

bias, the pec came back at 38, lol.



What could be the cause of this? Is it the worm, the way it's mounted and

aligned?



Also what is involved in swapping the worms around from the dec side?. If I

remove the worms is there a possibility of introducing backlash? Will I

void he warranty if I do?



Thanks







On Tuesday, 2 April 2013, DON MOSES wrote:



> **

>

>

>

>

> Might this be an indication that those high dollar worm gears sold by

> that French company would be a useful although expensive modification?

>

> Don M.

> Bayview, TX

>

> On 4/1/13 11:24 PM, Gale wrote:

> >

> >

> > Hi Sandy,

> >

> > My G11/G2 had a PE of about 20 arcseconds peak to peak. I switched the

> > RA and DEC worms, that seemed to help a little. Then last night I

> > tried using the string/weight (2.5 pounds) method to ensure a

> > consistant and firm east side bias at all times. The PE dropped to

> > about 4 arcsec p-p!

> >

> > Gale

> >

>

>

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







----------------------------

#52585 Apr 2, 2013

Sandy, the error in the PemPro file you uploaded is very periodic. It's not caused by balance, baclkash, or worm adjustment -- errors caused by these would not be nearly this periodic/repeatable, cycle after cycle.



I do believe the error is in the worm. If you can get a replacement from the dealer, that'd be great. If not, do try to program PEC -- I really think it'll make your mount track extremely well.



Regards,



-Paul

--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Brown sandybrown1973@...> wrote:

>

> Thanks guys,

>

> I've spoken to te store that I purchased the mount from they are going to

> take a look at it for me. To say I'm gutted is an understatement. I've

> wanted this mount for the past 5 years.

>

> I rebalanced the scope tonight to make sure there was a good amount of east

> bias, the pec came back at 38, lol.

>

> What could be the cause of this? Is it the worm, the way it's mounted and

> aligned?

>

> Also what is involved in swapping the worms around from the dec side?. If I

> remove the worms is there a possibility of introducing backlash? Will I

> void he warranty if I do?

>

> Thanks

>

>

>

>

> On Tuesday, 2 April 2013, DON MOSES wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Might this be an indication that those high dollar worm gears sold by

> > that French company would be a useful although expensive modification?

> >

> > Don M.

> > Bayview, TX

> >

> > On 4/1/13 11:24 PM, Gale wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Sandy,

> > >

> > > My G11/G2 had a PE of about 20 arcseconds peak to peak. I switched the

> > > RA and DEC worms, that seemed to help a little. Then last night I

> > > tried using the string/weight (2.5 pounds) method to ensure a

> > > consistant and firm east side bias at all times. The PE dropped to

> > > about 4 arcsec p-p!

> > >

> > > Gale

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>



----------------------------

#52587 Apr 2, 2013

If simply offsetting the RA counterweight to load the gears greatly reduced the PE, then it is an indication that the worm precision is quite good, but the worm mesh adjustment was fairly loose so that with the mount too well balanced the axis was bouncing around in the backlash and giving the appearance of higher PE that was real. Changing to a different worm at this point would be unlikely to result in PE lower than +/- 2 arcsec.



Ed Thomas

Deep Space Products

www.deepspaceproducts.com



--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, DON MOSES RCFLYER@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> Might this be an indication that those high dollar worm gears sold by

> that French company would be a useful although expensive modification?

>

> Don M.

> Bayview, TX

>



----------------------------

#52589 Apr 2, 2013

Hi Ed,



That is what I figured to, the axis was not bouncing around anymore. When I first bought the mount, there seemed to be no play in the RA, but still high PE. I took a star trails image, it was smooth and regular but the peaks were sawtooth shaped and the valleys were flat. I loosend the RA axis so I had 1-2mm of play at the CWD. Did not seem to make much difference. All of my measurements were done with DSLR and a light 300mm telephoto lens with an empty CWB. Apparently the weights involved were not enough to introduce much bias. When using a small scope I moved the counterweight about a half inch to introduce bias - apparently not enough. I like the string method because I can accurately reproduce the bias for each session. I thought I was looking at PE because it appeared to be smooth and and it repeated itself, but really I was looking at bounce and float. Could this be a common user error?



Gale

--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, "Edward Thomas" dsproducts@...> wrote:

>

> If simply offsetting the RA counterweight to load the gears greatly reduced the PE, then it is an indication that the worm precision is quite good, but the worm mesh adjustment was fairly loose so that with the mount too well balanced the axis was bouncing around in the backlash and giving the appearance of higher PE that was real. Changing to a different worm at this point would be unlikely to result in PE lower than +/- 2 arcsec.

>

> Ed Thomas

> Deep Space Products

> www.deepspaceproducts.com

>

>

> --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, DON MOSES RCFLYER@> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > Might this be an indication that those high dollar worm gears sold by

> > that French company would be a useful although expensive modification?

> >

> > Don M.

> > Bayview, TX

> >

>



----------------------------

#52590 Apr 2, 2013

I did a pec playback into the gemin the rerecorded the pec again with pec

enabled and played that back into the gemini. This only brought my pec down

to 11.85. Guiding is all over the place as well.



At this stage I'm calling the product faulty, but I'll wait to see what my

local store has to say after they look at it.



I'll be damned if I'm going to to spend $500 on a new worm trying to get

this mount to a spec that it should have come to me at.



Thanks

Sandy

On Wednesday, 3 April 2013, Gale wrote:



> **

>

>

> Hi Ed,

>

> That is what I figured to, the axis was not bouncing around anymore. When

> I first bought the mount, there seemed to be no play in the RA, but still

> high PE. I took a star trails image, it was smooth and regular but the

> peaks were sawtooth shaped and the valleys were flat. I loosend the RA axis

> so I had 1-2mm of play at the CWD. Did not seem to make much difference.

> All of my measurements were done with DSLR and a light 300mm telephoto lens

> with an empty CWB. Apparently the weights involved were not enough to

> introduce much bias. When using a small scope I moved the counterweight

> about a half inch to introduce bias - apparently not enough. I like the

> string method because I can accurately reproduce the bias for each session.

> I thought I was looking at PE because it appeared to be smooth and and it

> repeated itself, but really I was looking at bounce and float. Could this

> be a common user error?

>

> Gale

>

> --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',

> 'Losmandy_users%40yahoogroups.com');>, "Edward Thomas" dsproducts@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > If simply offsetting the RA counterweight to load the gears greatly

> reduced the PE, then it is an indication that the worm precision is quite

> good, but the worm mesh adjustment was fairly loose so that with the mount

> too well balanced the axis was bouncing around in the backlash and giving

> the appearance of higher PE that was real. Changing to a different worm at

> this point would be unlikely to result in PE lower than +/- 2 arcsec.

> >

> > Ed Thomas

> > Deep Space Products

> > www.deepspaceproducts.com

> >

> >

> > --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',

> 'Losmandy_users%40yahoogroups.com');>, DON MOSES RCFLYER@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Might this be an indication that those high dollar worm gears sold by

> > > that French company would be a useful although expensive modification?

> > >

> > > Don M.

> > > Bayview, TX

> > >

> >

>

>

>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







----------------------------

#52604 Apr 4, 2013

The original worm and gear blocks were not a one piece set. So the blocks could move independently. If that's your setup, squaring the two blocks would probably help a lot. But as others will tell you, that's hard to do because they want to turn when you tighten the screw.



The one piece worms are the way to go. I had 15-20 arc seconds of error out of the box. Replacing the worm with an Ovision worm from France gave me a PE of 2 arc seconds peak to peak. And the spurrious errors are gone too.



now I get smooth curves and smaller guiding corrections.



Out of the Box, I think the best you'll achieve is around half of what you're currently seeing in PE. I wouldn't expect much better than 15-20 arc seconds. It's a G11, not an AP900. At least for me I've come to accept that this is the difference between a $4000 mount and a $10000 mount. But that's my opinion and observations.





Tom P.

--- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Brown sandybrown1973@...> wrote:

>

> I did a pec playback into the gemin the rerecorded the pec again with pec

> enabled and played that back into the gemini. This only brought my pec down

> to 11.85. Guiding is all over the place as well.

>

> At this stage I'm calling the product faulty, but I'll wait to see what my

> local store has to say after they look at it.

>

> I'll be damned if I'm going to to spend $500 on a new worm trying to get

> this mount to a spec that it should have come to me at.

>

> Thanks

> Sandy

>

> On Wednesday, 3 April 2013, Gale wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Hi Ed,

> >

> > That is what I figured to, the axis was not bouncing around anymore. When

> > I first bought the mount, there seemed to be no play in the RA, but still

> > high PE. I took a star trails image, it was smooth and regular but the

> > peaks were sawtooth shaped and the valleys were flat. I loosend the RA axis

> > so I had 1-2mm of play at the CWD. Did not seem to make much difference.

> > All of my measurements were done with DSLR and a light 300mm telephoto lens

> > with an empty CWB. Apparently the weights involved were not enough to

> > introduce much bias. When using a small scope I moved the counterweight

> > about a half inch to introduce bias - apparently not enough. I like the

> > string method because I can accurately reproduce the bias for each session.

> > I thought I was looking at PE because it appeared to be smooth and and it

> > repeated itself, but really I was looking at bounce and float. Could this

> > be a common user error?

> >

> > Gale

> >

> > --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',

> > 'Losmandy_users%40yahoogroups.com');>, "Edward Thomas" dsproducts@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > If simply offsetting the RA counterweight to load the gears greatly

> > reduced the PE, then it is an indication that the worm precision is quite

> > good, but the worm mesh adjustment was fairly loose so that with the mount

> > too well balanced the axis was bouncing around in the backlash and giving

> > the appearance of higher PE that was real. Changing to a different worm at

> > this point would be unlikely to result in PE lower than +/- 2 arcsec.

> > >

> > > Ed Thomas

> > > Deep Space Products

> > > www.deepspaceproducts.com

> > >

> > >

> > > --- In Losmandy_users@yahoogroups.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',

> > 'Losmandy_users%40yahoogroups.com');>, DON MOSES RCFLYER@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Might this be an indication that those high dollar worm gears sold by

> > > > that French company would be a useful although expensive modification?

> > > >

> > > > Don M.

> > > > Bayview, TX

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>



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