VintageBigBlue.org

 

RE: [Losmandy_users] PE More Ideas


Nov 14, 2000

 


----------------------------

#969 Nov 14, 2000

Hi Everyone:



Sorry to my colegues in Europe, today I was up very late and I forget the

paper with the bearings references for Europe at my bed table (my room is in

a mess) and I wouldn't like to betray you with my bad memory.

More Ideas to Paul Sterngold:

I heard a gossip here in Europe that someone is deveolping a system to

record an average the PEC's of the GM11, yet don't know the state of

improvement. The idea consist of two parts:

1.- Make the hand-controller PEC commands pass through the PC in order to

record them, process them, average them and repeat if neccesary.

2.- Attach a magnet to the RA wormgear and a device to the mount block that

would detect that magnet and transfer to PC the exact moment the magnet

passes by the detector. This is to set a link between the gear an the PC, a

"starting point" for the PC as the PC doesn't know the time of the 4'

sequence the gear is in. Starting point for recording, programming, etc.

I'm not very keen on computers but I don't think that would be excesively

complicated, requires more PC programming than handicraft.

Advantages of the device:

1.- Save and average PEC's from one night to another. Easily check de

influence in PE of balance, clutch pressure, gears, steppers, bearings,

lubing. etc.

2.- Easily reprogram PEC between shots to different object, now PEC

programming leaves motors with such a low speed as to be inoperative.



Now I cannot open Rene Goerlich's page about steppers fix, has anybody got

the text and the image about it?



Allow me just an off topic question. Does anybody knows when is the Leonids

Meteor shower this year?



To John Ryan from Salamanca, you live quite close, we could meet to watch

and photograph some night. Which places do you go to watch?





Any comments about are wellcome.



Starry nights for all of you



Jose Lumbreras





-----Mensaje original-----

De: Paul Sterngold psterngold@...>

Para: Losmandy_users@egroups.com Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

Fecha: lunes 13 de noviembre de 2000 22:49

Asunto: Re: [Losmandy_users] PE Let's search for new solutions



>I too have been working to reduce my G11's PE. Since I have both a G11 and

a GM8, I >have a pool of four motors and three worms that I can use on the G11's RA

shaft, to >determine if any combination is superior to the others. This past Friday

night, I used >a guidescope with 1000mm focal length, a Klee 2.8x Barlow, and a Celestron

Microguide >eyepiece. Prima facie calculation says that this combination provides about

7.5 >arc-secs per graduation in the Microguide's central reticle. I plan on

calibrating this >more accurately by drifting, but have not yet done that. In addition, the

graduations >are far enough apart that it is easy to estimate guidestar position down to

0.25 >graduations or better.

>

>I have previously:

>

>- cleaned and re-lubed the mount

>- replaced the worm bearings with ABEC-7 grade bearings

>- carefully adjusted the worm pressure

>

>After carefully balancing the mount, I observed a star in the Microguide

eyepiece >continually for four minutes (worm period). The guidestar wandered from a

maximum of 1 >graduation to the left, to 2 graduations to the right. This corresponds to

a PE of 22.5 >arc-secs. In addition, during the drift, the guidestar often changed

direction, at >least half a dozen times during the period. The PE was typically slow and

steady, but >there were a couple of points at which it was fairly abrupt for as much as

0.5 - 0.75 >graduations.

>

>I tested all four motors and found that one had only 2.5 graduations total

PE >side-to-side. However, it was the third motor tested, and when I

re-attached it to test >the three worms (original worm still in place), I had 3 graduations total

PE >side-to-side.

>

>Another observed anomaly was that the guidestar did not return to the

center of the >Microguide eyepiece in the majority of test runs. In only 2 of 8 tests did

it return to >the centerpoint. In the rest of the cases, the four minute period ended

with the >guidestar off to one side, from 0.5 to 1.0 graduations.

>

>Testing with the three worms resulted in no apparent difference in PE.

>

>I am planning to create an accurate record of the mount's PE over time by

following >this procedure:

>

>1) Start a tape recorder.

>2) Observe a centered guidestar with the Microguide eyepiece and 2.8x

Barlow in the >1000mm f.l. guidescope.

>3) Every two seconds as marked by an assistant (or automated system, if I

can devise >one), call out the observed deviation of the guidestar in graduation units,

i.e., +0.5, >+1, +1.5, -0.5, -1.0, etc. Continue this process for eight minutes (two

worm >rotations).

>4) Enter the recorded data into Excel, then use Excel's graphing functions

to create a >line graph of the observed PE.

>

>I'm hoping that this procedure will result in a detailed graph that not

only shows the >total side-to-side PE but also how many times the mount changes directions,

and most >critically, ANY RAPID MOVEMENTS THAT ARE CAUSING AUTO-GUIDER PROBLEMS!

>

>Please critique this proposed procedure. Thank you.

>

>Clear skies,

>Paul Sterngold

>

>--- Jose Jorge Lumbreras jorge.lumbreras@...> wrote:

>> Hi Everyone:

>>

>> I work with CCD HX516 and a C11 GM11, for me PE in RA is the Aquiles'

ankle >> of astrophotogrphy. I want to get at least 2' unguided OK shots (in

>> ecuatorial field) to get a decent S/N ratio in my shots and get real good

>> photos.

>> Recently I upgraded my GM11 with the new worm bearings and the third RA

>> bearing. I have to make the following reflexions:

>>

>> 1.- The first problem is that my GM11 didn't have enough room for the

new >> RA bearing, it came out just 1 mm out of the housing, enuogh to lift the

>> mount block and eliminate the presure that moves the mount, simply it

didn't >> track at all. I needed a 2mm thick piece of material to reestablish the

>> contact between two surfaces. I cut two spare CD's narrower, adjusted

and >> stuck them in between. The problem was solved my mount was tracking once

>> again.

>> 2.- The new bearings I set were precission ones, English made, the

original >> were Chinese, just used for toys, this means 1 point against Scott. How

can >> anyone set toy bearings on a precission equipment that costs half a

million >> pesetas!!. After upgrading, handly moving the worm, the new worm bearings

>> seem to have soften the movement of the hole set.

>> 3.- Once upgraded, let's go to the countryside to test it. The general

>> behaviour of the whole mount is quite different, softer movements and all

>> but lets take a first shot. Great deception, a 2' shot and the PE

although >> it is minor is still there, Damn it!!

>> 4.- Improvement of the Upgrade: When before 1' was a great achievement

now I >> can get 90'' unguided shots with no problems, this is good, BUT I WANTED

2' >> AT LEAST!!. I'm sure we can achieve this.

>> 5.- Now the axis lubed and concentric with 3 bearings, the worm set

>> upgraded, lubed and adjusted at maximum level, something is still not

>> working OK, we still get PE (although much less than before). It comes to

me >> a new question. If we didn't trust the bearings, we changed it and it

>> somehow worked, should we trust Scott about the steppers, why not try and

>> change them?.

>> 6.- In my experience, GOTO system is a luxury Item, really not necesary

at >> all. If we conncet our PC with The Sky or Guide to the DSC this is enough

to >> find objects easily without looking through eyepiece, even at f10, just

shot >> the CCD and match the shot with The Sky chart. I don't trust Servo motors

>> are going to solve PE, In my opinion Servos vs Stepper, Stepper wins.

Lets >> look for High quality steppers I don't trust this ones.

>> 7.- Balance the OTA and tightness in the RA clutch is critical as well.

Lets >> improve something to calibrate balance and tightness.

>>

>> Please send me your opinion.

>>

>> Keep in contact

>>

>> Clear skies for all of you.

>>

>> Jose Lumbreras

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

---------------

>Do You Yahoo!?

>Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!

>calendar.yahoo.com/

>

>

>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

>Losmandy_users-unsubscribe@egroups.com

>

>

>

>







----------------------------

#971 Nov 14, 2000

The SBIG program CCDTRACK will do all of this and more.



It has a number of graphs such as Real time,accumulated real image,

T vs.Error(15exposures),hystogram (accumulated total image)and a target that

shows an x hit every exposure,accumulating for the duration of the

exposure(unless switching to a different graph)



You can test or train a pec just by making "inactive" the ra correction mode

and watch your ra in real time on a real star over a target and even zoom

into it to the pixel level.



fyi ...Jimmy



>From: "Jose Jorge Lumbreras" jorge.lumbreras@...>

>Reply-To: Losmandy_users@egroups.com

>To: Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

>Subject: RE: [Losmandy_users] PE More Ideas

>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:27:41 +0100

>

>Hi Everyone:

>

>Sorry to my colegues in Europe, today I was up very late and I forget the

>paper with the bearings references for Europe at my bed table (my room is

>in

>a mess) and I wouldn't like to betray you with my bad memory.

>More Ideas to Paul Sterngold:

>I heard a gossip here in Europe that someone is deveolping a system to

>record an average the PEC's of the GM11, yet don't know the state of

>improvement. The idea consist of two parts:

>1.- Make the hand-controller PEC commands pass through the PC in order to

>record them, process them, average them and repeat if neccesary.

>2.- Attach a magnet to the RA wormgear and a device to the mount block that

>would detect that magnet and transfer to PC the exact moment the magnet

>passes by the detector. This is to set a link between the gear an the PC, a

>"starting point" for the PC as the PC doesn't know the time of the 4'

>sequence the gear is in. Starting point for recording, programming, etc.

>I'm not very keen on computers but I don't think that would be excesively

>complicated, requires more PC programming than handicraft.

>Advantages of the device:

>1.- Save and average PEC's from one night to another. Easily check de

>influence in PE of balance, clutch pressure, gears, steppers, bearings,

>lubing. etc.

>2.- Easily reprogram PEC between shots to different object, now PEC

>programming leaves motors with such a low speed as to be inoperative.

>

>Now I cannot open Rene Goerlich's page about steppers fix, has anybody got

>the text and the image about it?

>

>Allow me just an off topic question. Does anybody knows when is the Leonids

>Meteor shower this year?

>

>To John Ryan from Salamanca, you live quite close, we could meet to watch

>and photograph some night. Which places do you go to watch?

>

>

>Any comments about are wellcome.

>

>Starry nights for all of you

>

>Jose Lumbreras

>

>

>-----Mensaje original-----

>De: Paul Sterngold psterngold@...>

>Para: Losmandy_users@egroups.com Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

>Fecha: lunes 13 de noviembre de 2000 22:49

>Asunto: Re: [Losmandy_users] PE Let's search for new solutions

>

>

> >I too have been working to reduce my G11's PE. Since I have both a G11

>and

>a GM8, I

> >have a pool of four motors and three worms that I can use on the G11's RA

>shaft, to

> >determine if any combination is superior to the others. This past Friday

>night, I used

> >a guidescope with 1000mm focal length, a Klee 2.8x Barlow, and a

>Celestron

>Microguide

> >eyepiece. Prima facie calculation says that this combination provides

>about

>7.5

> >arc-secs per graduation in the Microguide's central reticle. I plan on

>calibrating this

> >more accurately by drifting, but have not yet done that. In addition, the

>graduations

> >are far enough apart that it is easy to estimate guidestar position down

>to

>0.25

> >graduations or better.

> >

> >I have previously:

> >

> >- cleaned and re-lubed the mount

> >- replaced the worm bearings with ABEC-7 grade bearings

> >- carefully adjusted the worm pressure

> >

> >After carefully balancing the mount, I observed a star in the Microguide

>eyepiece

> >continually for four minutes (worm period). The guidestar wandered from a

>maximum of 1

> >graduation to the left, to 2 graduations to the right. This corresponds

>to

>a PE of 22.5

> >arc-secs. In addition, during the drift, the guidestar often changed

>direction, at

> >least half a dozen times during the period. The PE was typically slow and

>steady, but

> >there were a couple of points at which it was fairly abrupt for as much

>as

>0.5 - 0.75

> >graduations.

> >

> >I tested all four motors and found that one had only 2.5 graduations

>total

>PE

> >side-to-side. However, it was the third motor tested, and when I

>re-attached it to test

> >the three worms (original worm still in place), I had 3 graduations total

>PE

> >side-to-side.

> >

> >Another observed anomaly was that the guidestar did not return to the

>center of the

> >Microguide eyepiece in the majority of test runs. In only 2 of 8 tests

>did

>it return to

> >the centerpoint. In the rest of the cases, the four minute period ended

>with the

> >guidestar off to one side, from 0.5 to 1.0 graduations.

> >

> >Testing with the three worms resulted in no apparent difference in PE.

> >

> >I am planning to create an accurate record of the mount's PE over time by

>following

> >this procedure:

> >

> >1) Start a tape recorder.

> >2) Observe a centered guidestar with the Microguide eyepiece and 2.8x

>Barlow in the

> >1000mm f.l. guidescope.

> >3) Every two seconds as marked by an assistant (or automated system, if I

>can devise

> >one), call out the observed deviation of the guidestar in graduation

>units,

>i.e., +0.5,

> >+1, +1.5, -0.5, -1.0, etc. Continue this process for eight minutes (two

>worm

> >rotations).

> >4) Enter the recorded data into Excel, then use Excel's graphing

>functions

>to create a

> >line graph of the observed PE.

> >

> >I'm hoping that this procedure will result in a detailed graph that not

>only shows the

> >total side-to-side PE but also how many times the mount changes

>directions,

>and most

> >critically, ANY RAPID MOVEMENTS THAT ARE CAUSING AUTO-GUIDER PROBLEMS!

> >

> >Please critique this proposed procedure. Thank you.

> >

> >Clear skies,

> >Paul Sterngold

> >

> >--- Jose Jorge Lumbreras jorge.lumbreras@...> wrote:

> >> Hi Everyone:

> >>

> >> I work with CCD HX516 and a C11 GM11, for me PE in RA is the Aquiles'

>ankle

> >> of astrophotogrphy. I want to get at least 2' unguided OK shots (in

> >> ecuatorial field) to get a decent S/N ratio in my shots and get real

>good

> >> photos.

> >> Recently I upgraded my GM11 with the new worm bearings and the third RA

> >> bearing. I have to make the following reflexions:

> >>

> >> 1.- The first problem is that my GM11 didn't have enough room for the

>new

> >> RA bearing, it came out just 1 mm out of the housing, enuogh to lift

>the

> >> mount block and eliminate the presure that moves the mount, simply it

>didn't

> >> track at all. I needed a 2mm thick piece of material to reestablish the

> >> contact between two surfaces. I cut two spare CD's narrower, adjusted

>and

> >> stuck them in between. The problem was solved my mount was tracking

>once

> >> again.

> >> 2.- The new bearings I set were precission ones, English made, the

>original

> >> were Chinese, just used for toys, this means 1 point against Scott. How

>can

> >> anyone set toy bearings on a precission equipment that costs half a

>million

> >> pesetas!!. After upgrading, handly moving the worm, the new worm

>bearings

> >> seem to have soften the movement of the hole set.

> >> 3.- Once upgraded, let's go to the countryside to test it. The general

> >> behaviour of the whole mount is quite different, softer movements and

>all

> >> but lets take a first shot. Great deception, a 2' shot and the PE

>although

> >> it is minor is still there, Damn it!!

> >> 4.- Improvement of the Upgrade: When before 1' was a great achievement

>now I

> >> can get 90'' unguided shots with no problems, this is good, BUT I

>WANTED

>2'

> >> AT LEAST!!. I'm sure we can achieve this.

> >> 5.- Now the axis lubed and concentric with 3 bearings, the worm set

> >> upgraded, lubed and adjusted at maximum level, something is still not

> >> working OK, we still get PE (although much less than before). It comes

>to

>me

> >> a new question. If we didn't trust the bearings, we changed it and it

> >> somehow worked, should we trust Scott about the steppers, why not try

>and

> >> change them?.

> >> 6.- In my experience, GOTO system is a luxury Item, really not

>necesary

>at

> >> all. If we conncet our PC with The Sky or Guide to the DSC this is

>enough

>to

> >> find objects easily without looking through eyepiece, even at f10, just

>shot

> >> the CCD and match the shot with The Sky chart. I don't trust Servo

>motors

> >> are going to solve PE, In my opinion Servos vs Stepper, Stepper wins.

>Lets

> >> look for High quality steppers I don't trust this ones.

> >> 7.- Balance the OTA and tightness in the RA clutch is critical as well.

>Lets

> >> improve something to calibrate balance and tightness.

> >>

> >> Please send me your opinion.

> >>

> >> Keep in contact

> >>

> >> Clear skies for all of you.

> >>

> >> Jose Lumbreras

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

---------------

> >Do You Yahoo!?

> >Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!

> >calendar.yahoo.com/

> >

> >

> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> >Losmandy_users-unsubscribe@egroups.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

>Losmandy_users-unsubscribe@egroups.com

>

>

>



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----------------------------

#972 Nov 14, 2000

Where can I find The SBIG program CCDTRACK for free?



and would it be difficult to interface with the mount?





Thanks for your help



Jose Lumbreras







-----Mensaje original-----

De: James A. Thibert thibertj@...>

Para: Losmandy_users@egroups.com Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

Fecha: martes 14 de noviembre de 2000 14:30

Asunto: RE: [Losmandy_users] PE More Ideas



>The SBIG program CCDTRACK will do all of this and more.

>

>It has a number of graphs such as Real time,accumulated real image,

>T vs.Error(15exposures),hystogram (accumulated total image)and a target

that >shows an x hit every exposure,accumulating for the duration of the

>exposure(unless switching to a different graph)

>

>You can test or train a pec just by making "inactive" the ra correction

mode >and watch your ra in real time on a real star over a target and even zoom

>into it to the pixel level.

>

>fyi ...Jimmy

>

>

>>From: "Jose Jorge Lumbreras" jorge.lumbreras@...>

>>Reply-To: Losmandy_users@egroups.com

>>To: Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

>>Subject: RE: [Losmandy_users] PE More Ideas

>>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:27:41 +0100

>>

>>Hi Everyone:

>>

>>Sorry to my colegues in Europe, today I was up very late and I forget the

>>paper with the bearings references for Europe at my bed table (my room is

>>in

>>a mess) and I wouldn't like to betray you with my bad memory.

>>More Ideas to Paul Sterngold:

>>I heard a gossip here in Europe that someone is deveolping a system to

>>record an average the PEC's of the GM11, yet don't know the state of

>>improvement. The idea consist of two parts:

>>1.- Make the hand-controller PEC commands pass through the PC in order to

>>record them, process them, average them and repeat if neccesary.

>>2.- Attach a magnet to the RA wormgear and a device to the mount block

that >>would detect that magnet and transfer to PC the exact moment the magnet

>>passes by the detector. This is to set a link between the gear an the PC,

a >>"starting point" for the PC as the PC doesn't know the time of the 4'

>>sequence the gear is in. Starting point for recording, programming, etc.

>>I'm not very keen on computers but I don't think that would be excesively

>>complicated, requires more PC programming than handicraft.

>>Advantages of the device:

>>1.- Save and average PEC's from one night to another. Easily check de

>>influence in PE of balance, clutch pressure, gears, steppers, bearings,

>>lubing. etc.

>>2.- Easily reprogram PEC between shots to different object, now PEC

>>programming leaves motors with such a low speed as to be inoperative.

>>

>>Now I cannot open Rene Goerlich's page about steppers fix, has anybody got

>>the text and the image about it?

>>

>>Allow me just an off topic question. Does anybody knows when is the

Leonids >>Meteor shower this year?

>>

>>To John Ryan from Salamanca, you live quite close, we could meet to watch

>>and photograph some night. Which places do you go to watch?

>>

>>

>>Any comments about are wellcome.

>>

>>Starry nights for all of you

>>

>>Jose Lumbreras

>>

>>

>>-----Mensaje original-----

>>De: Paul Sterngold psterngold@...>

>>Para: Losmandy_users@egroups.com Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

>>Fecha: lunes 13 de noviembre de 2000 22:49

>>Asunto: Re: [Losmandy_users] PE Let's search for new solutions

>>

>>

>> >I too have been working to reduce my G11's PE. Since I have both a G11

>>and

>>a GM8, I

>> >have a pool of four motors and three worms that I can use on the G11's

RA >>shaft, to

>> >determine if any combination is superior to the others. This past Friday

>>night, I used

>> >a guidescope with 1000mm focal length, a Klee 2.8x Barlow, and a

>>Celestron

>>Microguide

>> >eyepiece. Prima facie calculation says that this combination provides

>>about

>>7.5

>> >arc-secs per graduation in the Microguide's central reticle. I plan on

>>calibrating this

>> >more accurately by drifting, but have not yet done that. In addition,

the >>graduations

>> >are far enough apart that it is easy to estimate guidestar position down

>>to

>>0.25

>> >graduations or better.

>> >

>> >I have previously:

>> >

>> >- cleaned and re-lubed the mount

>> >- replaced the worm bearings with ABEC-7 grade bearings

>> >- carefully adjusted the worm pressure

>> >

>> >After carefully balancing the mount, I observed a star in the Microguide

>>eyepiece

>> >continually for four minutes (worm period). The guidestar wandered from

a >>maximum of 1

>> >graduation to the left, to 2 graduations to the right. This corresponds

>>to

>>a PE of 22.5

>> >arc-secs. In addition, during the drift, the guidestar often changed

>>direction, at

>> >least half a dozen times during the period. The PE was typically slow

and >>steady, but

>> >there were a couple of points at which it was fairly abrupt for as much

>>as

>>0.5 - 0.75

>> >graduations.

>> >

>> >I tested all four motors and found that one had only 2.5 graduations

>>total

>>PE

>> >side-to-side. However, it was the third motor tested, and when I

>>re-attached it to test

>> >the three worms (original worm still in place), I had 3 graduations

total >>PE

>> >side-to-side.

>> >

>> >Another observed anomaly was that the guidestar did not return to the

>>center of the

>> >Microguide eyepiece in the majority of test runs. In only 2 of 8 tests

>>did

>>it return to

>> >the centerpoint. In the rest of the cases, the four minute period ended

>>with the

>> >guidestar off to one side, from 0.5 to 1.0 graduations.

>> >

>> >Testing with the three worms resulted in no apparent difference in PE.

>> >

>> >I am planning to create an accurate record of the mount's PE over time

by >>following

>> >this procedure:

>> >

>> >1) Start a tape recorder.

>> >2) Observe a centered guidestar with the Microguide eyepiece and 2.8x

>>Barlow in the

>> >1000mm f.l. guidescope.

>> >3) Every two seconds as marked by an assistant (or automated system, if

I >>can devise

>> >one), call out the observed deviation of the guidestar in graduation

>>units,

>>i.e., +0.5,

>> >+1, +1.5, -0.5, -1.0, etc. Continue this process for eight minutes (two

>>worm

>> >rotations).

>> >4) Enter the recorded data into Excel, then use Excel's graphing

>>functions

>>to create a

>> >line graph of the observed PE.

>> >

>> >I'm hoping that this procedure will result in a detailed graph that not

>>only shows the

>> >total side-to-side PE but also how many times the mount changes

>>directions,

>>and most

>> >critically, ANY RAPID MOVEMENTS THAT ARE CAUSING AUTO-GUIDER PROBLEMS!

>> >

>> >Please critique this proposed procedure. Thank you.

>> >

>> >Clear skies,

>> >Paul Sterngold

>> >

>> >--- Jose Jorge Lumbreras jorge.lumbreras@...> wrote:

>> >> Hi Everyone:

>> >>

>> >> I work with CCD HX516 and a C11 GM11, for me PE in RA is the Aquiles'

>>ankle

>> >> of astrophotogrphy. I want to get at least 2' unguided OK shots (in

>> >> ecuatorial field) to get a decent S/N ratio in my shots and get real

>>good

>> >> photos.

>> >> Recently I upgraded my GM11 with the new worm bearings and the third

RA >> >> bearing. I have to make the following reflexions:

>> >>

>> >> 1.- The first problem is that my GM11 didn't have enough room for the

>>new

>> >> RA bearing, it came out just 1 mm out of the housing, enuogh to lift

>>the

>> >> mount block and eliminate the presure that moves the mount, simply it

>>didn't

>> >> track at all. I needed a 2mm thick piece of material to reestablish

the >> >> contact between two surfaces. I cut two spare CD's narrower, adjusted

>>and

>> >> stuck them in between. The problem was solved my mount was tracking

>>once

>> >> again.

>> >> 2.- The new bearings I set were precission ones, English made, the

>>original

>> >> were Chinese, just used for toys, this means 1 point against Scott.

How >>can

>> >> anyone set toy bearings on a precission equipment that costs half a

>>million

>> >> pesetas!!. After upgrading, handly moving the worm, the new worm

>>bearings

>> >> seem to have soften the movement of the hole set.

>> >> 3.- Once upgraded, let's go to the countryside to test it. The general

>> >> behaviour of the whole mount is quite different, softer movements and

>>all

>> >> but lets take a first shot. Great deception, a 2' shot and the PE

>>although

>> >> it is minor is still there, Damn it!!

>> >> 4.- Improvement of the Upgrade: When before 1' was a great achievement

>>now I

>> >> can get 90'' unguided shots with no problems, this is good, BUT I

>>WANTED

>>2'

>> >> AT LEAST!!. I'm sure we can achieve this.

>> >> 5.- Now the axis lubed and concentric with 3 bearings, the worm set

>> >> upgraded, lubed and adjusted at maximum level, something is still not

>> >> working OK, we still get PE (although much less than before). It comes

>>to

>>me

>> >> a new question. If we didn't trust the bearings, we changed it and it

>> >> somehow worked, should we trust Scott about the steppers, why not try

>>and

>> >> change them?.

>> >> 6.- In my experience, GOTO system is a luxury Item, really not

>>necesary

>>at

>> >> all. If we conncet our PC with The Sky or Guide to the DSC this is

>>enough

>>to

>> >> find objects easily without looking through eyepiece, even at f10,

just >>shot

>> >> the CCD and match the shot with The Sky chart. I don't trust Servo

>>motors

>> >> are going to solve PE, In my opinion Servos vs Stepper, Stepper wins.

>>Lets

>> >> look for High quality steppers I don't trust this ones.

>> >> 7.- Balance the OTA and tightness in the RA clutch is critical as

well. >>Lets

>> >> improve something to calibrate balance and tightness.

>> >>

>> >> Please send me your opinion.

>> >>

>> >> Keep in contact

>> >>

>> >> Clear skies for all of you.

>> >>

>> >> Jose Lumbreras

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >

>> >

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>> >Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!

>> >calendar.yahoo.com/

>> >

>> >

>> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

>> >Losmandy_users-unsubscribe@egroups.com

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

>>Losmandy_users-unsubscribe@egroups.com

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----------------------------

#973 Nov 14, 2000

Check out the SBIG site for downloads but it'll only work if you havw an

st-4

>From: "Jose Jorge Lumbreras" jorge.lumbreras@...>

>Reply-To: Losmandy_users@egroups.com

>To: Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

>Subject: RE: [Losmandy_users] PE More Ideas

>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:00:23 +0100

>

>Where can I find The SBIG program CCDTRACK for free?

>

> and would it be difficult to interface with the mount?

>

>

>Thanks for your help

>

>Jose Lumbreras

>

>

>

>-----Mensaje original-----

>De: James A. Thibert thibertj@...>

>Para: Losmandy_users@egroups.com Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

>Fecha: martes 14 de noviembre de 2000 14:30

>Asunto: RE: [Losmandy_users] PE More Ideas

>

>

> >The SBIG program CCDTRACK will do all of this and more.

> >

> >It has a number of graphs such as Real time,accumulated real image,

> >T vs.Error(15exposures),hystogram (accumulated total image)and a target

>that

> >shows an x hit every exposure,accumulating for the duration of the

> >exposure(unless switching to a different graph)

> >

> >You can test or train a pec just by making "inactive" the ra correction

>mode

> >and watch your ra in real time on a real star over a target and even zoom

> >into it to the pixel level.

> >

> >fyi ...Jimmy

> >

> >

> >>From: "Jose Jorge Lumbreras" jorge.lumbreras@...>

> >>Reply-To: Losmandy_users@egroups.com

> >>To: Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

> >>Subject: RE: [Losmandy_users] PE More Ideas

> >>Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:27:41 +0100

> >>

> >>Hi Everyone:

> >>

> >>Sorry to my colegues in Europe, today I was up very late and I forget

>the

> >>paper with the bearings references for Europe at my bed table (my room

>is

> >>in

> >>a mess) and I wouldn't like to betray you with my bad memory.

> >>More Ideas to Paul Sterngold:

> >>I heard a gossip here in Europe that someone is deveolping a system to

> >>record an average the PEC's of the GM11, yet don't know the state of

> >>improvement. The idea consist of two parts:

> >>1.- Make the hand-controller PEC commands pass through the PC in order

>to

> >>record them, process them, average them and repeat if neccesary.

> >>2.- Attach a magnet to the RA wormgear and a device to the mount block

>that

> >>would detect that magnet and transfer to PC the exact moment the magnet

> >>passes by the detector. This is to set a link between the gear an the

>PC,

>a

> >>"starting point" for the PC as the PC doesn't know the time of the 4'

> >>sequence the gear is in. Starting point for recording, programming, etc.

> >>I'm not very keen on computers but I don't think that would be

>excesively

> >>complicated, requires more PC programming than handicraft.

> >>Advantages of the device:

> >>1.- Save and average PEC's from one night to another. Easily check de

> >>influence in PE of balance, clutch pressure, gears, steppers, bearings,

> >>lubing. etc.

> >>2.- Easily reprogram PEC between shots to different object, now PEC

> >>programming leaves motors with such a low speed as to be inoperative.

> >>

> >>Now I cannot open Rene Goerlich's page about steppers fix, has anybody

>got

> >>the text and the image about it?

> >>

> >>Allow me just an off topic question. Does anybody knows when is the

>Leonids

> >>Meteor shower this year?

> >>

> >>To John Ryan from Salamanca, you live quite close, we could meet to

>watch

> >>and photograph some night. Which places do you go to watch?

> >>

> >>

> >>Any comments about are wellcome.

> >>

> >>Starry nights for all of you

> >>

> >>Jose Lumbreras

> >>

> >>

> >>-----Mensaje original-----

> >>De: Paul Sterngold psterngold@...>

> >>Para: Losmandy_users@egroups.com Losmandy_users@egroups.com>

> >>Fecha: lunes 13 de noviembre de 2000 22:49

> >>Asunto: Re: [Losmandy_users] PE Let's search for new solutions

> >>

> >>

> >> >I too have been working to reduce my G11's PE. Since I have both a G11

> >>and

> >>a GM8, I

> >> >have a pool of four motors and three worms that I can use on the G11's

>RA

> >>shaft, to

> >> >determine if any combination is superior to the others. This past

>Friday

> >>night, I used

> >> >a guidescope with 1000mm focal length, a Klee 2.8x Barlow, and a

> >>Celestron

> >>Microguide

> >> >eyepiece. Prima facie calculation says that this combination provides

> >>about

> >>7.5

> >> >arc-secs per graduation in the Microguide's central reticle. I plan on

> >>calibrating this

> >> >more accurately by drifting, but have not yet done that. In addition,

>the

> >>graduations

> >> >are far enough apart that it is easy to estimate guidestar position

>down

> >>to

> >>0.25

> >> >graduations or better.

> >> >

> >> >I have previously:

> >> >

> >> >- cleaned and re-lubed the mount

> >> >- replaced the worm bearings with ABEC-7 grade bearings

> >> >- carefully adjusted the worm pressure

> >> >

> >> >After carefully balancing the mount, I observed a star in the

>Microguide

> >>eyepiece

> >> >continually for four minutes (worm period). The guidestar wandered

>from

>a

> >>maximum of 1

> >> >graduation to the left, to 2 graduations to the right. This

>corresponds

> >>to

> >>a PE of 22.5

> >> >arc-secs. In addition, during the drift, the guidestar often changed

> >>direction, at

> >> >least half a dozen times during the period. The PE was typically slow

>and

> >>steady, but

> >> >there were a couple of points at which it was fairly abrupt for as

>much

> >>as

> >>0.5 - 0.75

> >> >graduations.

> >> >

> >> >I tested all four motors and found that one had only 2.5 graduations

> >>total

> >>PE

> >> >side-to-side. However, it was the third motor tested, and when I

> >>re-attached it to test

> >> >the three worms (original worm still in place), I had 3 graduations

>total

> >>PE

> >> >side-to-side.

> >> >

> >> >Another observed anomaly was that the guidestar did not return to the

> >>center of the

> >> >Microguide eyepiece in the majority of test runs. In only 2 of 8 tests

> >>did

> >>it return to

> >> >the centerpoint. In the rest of the cases, the four minute period

>ended

> >>with the

> >> >guidestar off to one side, from 0.5 to 1.0 graduations.

> >> >

> >> >Testing with the three worms resulted in no apparent difference in PE.

> >> >

> >> >I am planning to create an accurate record of the mount's PE over time

>by

> >>following

> >> >this procedure:

> >> >

> >> >1) Start a tape recorder.

> >> >2) Observe a centered guidestar with the Microguide eyepiece and 2.8x

> >>Barlow in the

> >> >1000mm f.l. guidescope.

> >> >3) Every two seconds as marked by an assistant (or automated system,

>if

>I

> >>can devise

> >> >one), call out the observed deviation of the guidestar in graduation

> >>units,

> >>i.e., +0.5,

> >> >+1, +1.5, -0.5, -1.0, etc. Continue this process for eight minutes

>(two

> >>worm

> >> >rotations).

> >> >4) Enter the recorded data into Excel, then use Excel's graphing

> >>functions

> >>to create a

> >> >line graph of the observed PE.

> >> >

> >> >I'm hoping that this procedure will result in a detailed graph that

>not

> >>only shows the

> >> >total side-to-side PE but also how many times the mount changes

> >>directions,

> >>and most

> >> >critically, ANY RAPID MOVEMENTS THAT ARE CAUSING AUTO-GUIDER PROBLEMS!

> >> >

> >> >Please critique this proposed procedure. Thank you.

> >> >

> >> >Clear skies,

> >> >Paul Sterngold

> >> >

> >> >--- Jose Jorge Lumbreras jorge.lumbreras@...> wrote:

> >> >> Hi Everyone:

> >> >>

> >> >> I work with CCD HX516 and a C11 GM11, for me PE in RA is the

>Aquiles'

> >>ankle

> >> >> of astrophotogrphy. I want to get at least 2' unguided OK shots (in

> >> >> ecuatorial field) to get a decent S/N ratio in my shots and get real

> >>good

> >> >> photos.

> >> >> Recently I upgraded my GM11 with the new worm bearings and the third

>RA

> >> >> bearing. I have to make the following reflexions:

> >> >>

> >> >> 1.- The first problem is that my GM11 didn't have enough room for

>the

> >>new

> >> >> RA bearing, it came out just 1 mm out of the housing, enuogh to lift

> >>the

> >> >> mount block and eliminate the presure that moves the mount, simply

>it

> >>didn't

> >> >> track at all. I needed a 2mm thick piece of material to reestablish

>the

> >> >> contact between two surfaces. I cut two spare CD's narrower,

>adjusted

> >>and

> >> >> stuck them in between. The problem was solved my mount was tracking

> >>once

> >> >> again.

> >> >> 2.- The new bearings I set were precission ones, English made, the

> >>original

> >> >> were Chinese, just used for toys, this means 1 point against Scott.

>How

> >>can

> >> >> anyone set toy bearings on a precission equipment that costs half a

> >>million

> >> >> pesetas!!. After upgrading, handly moving the worm, the new worm

> >>bearings

> >> >> seem to have soften the movement of the hole set.

> >> >> 3.- Once upgraded, let's go to the countryside to test it. The

>general

> >> >> behaviour of the whole mount is quite different, softer movements

>and

> >>all

> >> >> but lets take a first shot. Great deception, a 2' shot and the PE

> >>although

> >> >> it is minor is still there, Damn it!!

> >> >> 4.- Improvement of the Upgrade: When before 1' was a great

>achievement

> >>now I

> >> >> can get 90'' unguided shots with no problems, this is good, BUT I

> >>WANTED

> >>2'

> >> >> AT LEAST!!. I'm sure we can achieve this.

> >> >> 5.- Now the axis lubed and concentric with 3 bearings, the worm set

> >> >> upgraded, lubed and adjusted at maximum level, something is still

>not

> >> >> working OK, we still get PE (although much less than before). It

>comes

> >>to

> >>me

> >> >> a new question. If we didn't trust the bearings, we changed it and

>it

> >> >> somehow worked, should we trust Scott about the steppers, why not

>try

> >>and

> >> >> change them?.

> >> >> 6.- In my experience, GOTO system is a luxury Item, really not

> >>necesary

> >>at

> >> >> all. If we conncet our PC with The Sky or Guide to the DSC this is

> >>enough

> >>to

> >> >> find objects easily without looking through eyepiece, even at f10,

>just

> >>shot

> >> >> the CCD and match the shot with The Sky chart. I don't trust Servo

> >>motors

> >> >> are going to solve PE, In my opinion Servos vs Stepper, Stepper

>wins.

> >>Lets

> >> >> look for High quality steppers I don't trust this ones.

> >> >> 7.- Balance the OTA and tightness in the RA clutch is critical as

>well.

> >>Lets

> >> >> improve something to calibrate balance and tightness.

> >> >>

> >> >> Please send me your opinion.

> >> >>

> >> >> Keep in contact

> >> >>

> >> >> Clear skies for all of you.

> >> >>

> >> >> Jose Lumbreras

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >>

> >> >

> >> >

---------------

> >> >Do You Yahoo!?

> >> >Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!

> >> >calendar.yahoo.com/

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> >> >Losmandy_users-unsubscribe@egroups.com

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >> >

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

> >>Losmandy_users-unsubscribe@egroups.com

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

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> >

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> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

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----------------------------

#976 Nov 14, 2000

I'll give this a try, but I still plan to follow through with my manual method of

tracking and graphing the accuracy. Given that I'm having problems with the ST4

tracking accurately, the manual method might help diagnose what I may be doing wrong.



One other thing I plan to do, is the same manual tracking and graphing, but with the

ST4 auto-guiding. I'll read the PE through the imaging scope while the ST4 guides

through the guidescope. I'll do this with the ST4 keeping its own tracking log. Then I

can compare the observed tracking performance against how the ST4 performed. Something

critical might show up.



Paul Sterngold



--- "James A. Thibert" thibertj@...> wrote: > The SBIG program CCDTRACK will do all of this and more.

>

> It has a number of graphs such as Real time,accumulated real image,

> T vs.Error(15exposures),hystogram (accumulated total image)and a target that

> shows an x hit every exposure,accumulating for the duration of the

> exposure(unless switching to a different graph)

>

> You can test or train a pec just by making "inactive" the ra correction mode

> and watch your ra in real time on a real star over a target and even zoom

> into it to the pixel level.

>

> fyi ...Jimmy



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----------------------------

#990 Nov 14, 2000

Thanks, Jim. There's lots of good information here and I will take your advice and see

if I can get my ST4 controller to speak to my laptop, then I'll use CCDTRACK.



Cheers,

Paul Sterngold



--- "James A. Thibert" thibertj@...> wrote: > I went thru a hell of a lot on the st-4/g-11 combo...almost a year and had

> both ScottL and Alan Holmes of SBIG directly involved.

> Turned out the st-4 was perfect and of course we all know the fixes now on

> the g-11.

> I did the same as you are suggesting,guiding with st-4 and checking against

> a simultaneous guidescope.It didn't prove much to me except that there were

> guide errors... snip>



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