Re: [ap-ug] affordable astro cam?


Mar 25, 2002

 


----------------------------

#10937 Mar 25, 2002

Hi Mike,



Seems like a nice camera. Looks like Canon is sorting out their

color "problems" with this new camera. Too bad I have all Nikon

lenses. By the way I don't think this camera (or any other) will

likely outperform a cooled CCD camera for long exposures (even as

little as several minute exposures).



Only chance is on bright objects like the moon and filtered sun where

the exposure is small. The staggering of colored pixels reduces the

resolution of the camera versus a monochome camera + filters. Lastly, pixel

size does not make a difference except to change the image scale.

Smaller pixels effectively increase the focal length. Using a longer

focal length to compensate will give the same detail. Larger pixels

will reduce the exposure time needed at the same focal length.



-Ray

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Mike C [mailto:mike@...]

> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 2:20 AM

> To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com

> Subject: [ap-ug] affordable astro cam?

>

>

>

> Boy has Canon gone and done it now. I've been using my EOS D30

> digital camera (3.1 megapixels) to make moon shots ala:

> www.scopenews.com/images/bigmoon.jpg (with AP130 f/6)

> But the D30 is not suitable for nebula or faint object usage due to

> horrible digital noise on anything over 20 seconds or so of exposure.

>

> Well, the D60 is coming out this month, (6 megapixels) with 6 micron

> pixels instead of the 10 micron pixels of the D30. Now thats exciting

> enough, but on www.dpreview.com there is a sample photo of a FOUR

> minute exposure that is _rediculously_ free of noise. It's on this

> page:

> www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/page13.asp

>

> I think the D60 will be a prime focus monster cam !!! At $2000, it is

> likely to offer cheap, stiff competition against megabuck SBIG stuff

> (on bright objects like the moon or Sun.) I cant wait to attack M42

> next Winter with the D60 in hand. It's finally possible, I bet.

>

>

>

>

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

>

>



----------------------------

#10939 Mar 25, 2002

Hi Mike,



I wonder if the reason the camera is noise free is that the factory creates master

dark and bias frames to subtract from the image? If so temp variations could

result in variations in the quality of the images. Also, if they didn't stretch the

sample images like we would do when processing then maybe there may be more

noise than you think. Lastly I wonder what the depth of the A/D converter is? I

know my Nikon has 12-bits but that is still less than 16-bits in many of the

CCD cameras. Looking forward to seeing your results when you get one!



-Ray

----- Original Message -----

From: "Mike C" mike@...>

To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:57 AM

Subject: Re: [ap-ug] affordable astro cam?





>

> Yes, I essentially agree, Ray.

>

> I find it exciting though, because 30 second exposures on my D30 showed

> the Orion Nebula's green and pink lights just starting to show off the classic

> shape of M42. (With horrible digital noise.) In contrast, shots on the D60 will

> be "practically noise free" at the same ISO, and allow at least eight times longer

> exposures still without any of that offending noise. I am positive it will see

> pleasingly deep in M42 with eight times as long to collect photons!

>

> Truly a digital camera revolution is under foot.

>

> Somehow Canon managed to both shrink the pixel area by 50% to 6 micron,

> then present the same ISO "film speeds" with half the photons to work

> with, and finally got rid of the noise! I am insanely excited about the specs.

>

> I dont think it replaces the long exposure capabilities of a cooled SBIG

> camera either, but for $1900, a 6 megapixel "noise free" array of 6 micron

> pixels capable of stunning four minute exposures is definitely going to

> cause a stir in amateur astronomy.

>

> Best regards,

> Mike

>

>

>

>

> > Hi Mike,

> >

> > Seems like a nice camera. Looks like Canon is sorting out their

> > color "problems" with this new camera. Too bad I have all Nikon

> > lenses. By the way I don't think this camera (or any other) will

> > likely outperform a cooled CCD camera for long exposures (even as

> > little as several minute exposures).

> >

> > Only chance is on bright objects like the moon and filtered sun where

> > the exposure is small. The staggering of colored pixels reduces the

> > resolution of the camera versus a monochome camera + filters. Lastly, pixel

> > size does not make a difference except to change the image scale.

> > Smaller pixels effectively increase the focal length. Using a longer

> > focal length to compensate will give the same detail. Larger pixels

> > will reduce the exposure time needed at the same focal length.

> >

> > -Ray

>

>

>

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

>

>







----------------------------

#10940 Mar 25, 2002

More than likely the sensitivity of the D60 suffers with the added noise

reduction. Canon is able to reduce noise since the terrestial night time

shots ( like that bridge shot ) are still very bright in comparision to

the faint nebula PICs we take. My guess is when you point it at M42, it

going to be a long exposure, past 4 minutes, and then the noise will

start to creep back in. It will probably be useless for faint objects.

Not to mention the guiding problem since there is no autoguide.



It's still a transistional phase for digital SLR photography. It's a

step closer to the SBIG cameras; but not enough to be a substitute. I'd

say we have 2 more iterations ( 2 years ) of digital SLR to go through

before they are viable as a deepsky camera. If I didn't already own a

digital camera, the new D60 would be my choice. We may see in the next

iteration a full frame SLR Canon ( D90 ?? ).



Joe









Ray Gralak wrote: >

> Hi Mike,

>

> I wonder if the reason the camera is noise free is that the factory creates master

> dark and bias frames to subtract from the image? If so temp variations could

> result in variations in the quality of the images. Also, if they didn't stretch the

> sample images like we would do when processing then maybe there may be more

> noise than you think. Lastly I wonder what the depth of the A/D converter is? I

> know my Nikon has 12-bits but that is still less than 16-bits in many of the

> CCD cameras. Looking forward to seeing your results when you get one!

>

> -Ray

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Mike C" mike@...>

> To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com>

> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:57 AM

> Subject: Re: [ap-ug] affordable astro cam?

>

> >

> > Yes, I essentially agree, Ray.

> >

> > I find it exciting though, because 30 second exposures on my D30 showed

> > the Orion Nebula's green and pink lights just starting to show off the classic

> > shape of M42. (With horrible digital noise.) In contrast, shots on the D60 will

> > be "practically noise free" at the same ISO, and allow at least eight times longer

> > exposures still without any of that offending noise. I am positive it will see

> > pleasingly deep in M42 with eight times as long to collect photons!

> >

> > Truly a digital camera revolution is under foot.

> >

> > Somehow Canon managed to both shrink the pixel area by 50% to 6 micron,

> > then present the same ISO "film speeds" with half the photons to work

> > with, and finally got rid of the noise! I am insanely excited about the specs.

> >

> > I dont think it replaces the long exposure capabilities of a cooled SBIG

> > camera either, but for $1900, a 6 megapixel "noise free" array of 6 micron

> > pixels capable of stunning four minute exposures is definitely going to

> > cause a stir in amateur astronomy.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Mike

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > Hi Mike,

> > >

> > > Seems like a nice camera. Looks like Canon is sorting out their

> > > color "problems" with this new camera. Too bad I have all Nikon

> > > lenses. By the way I don't think this camera (or any other) will

> > > likely outperform a cooled CCD camera for long exposures (even as

> > > little as several minute exposures).

> > >

> > > Only chance is on bright objects like the moon and filtered sun where

> > > the exposure is small. The staggering of colored pixels reduces the

> > > resolution of the camera versus a monochome camera + filters. Lastly, pixel

> > > size does not make a difference except to change the image scale.

> > > Smaller pixels effectively increase the focal length. Using a longer

> > > focal length to compensate will give the same detail. Larger pixels

> > > will reduce the exposure time needed at the same focal length.

> > >

> > > -Ray

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> > see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

> >

> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >

> >

> >

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



----------------------------

#10944 Mar 25, 2002

My guess is that you won't see Canon or Nikon pushing much further than where the D60 is in terms of dark currents because very little photography (as opposed to astrophotography), even by professionals, requires digital exposures of longer than 30 seconds (which is the equivalent of several, if not many, minutes of film exposure because of reciprocity failure).

>>> astrojoe@... 03/25/02 02:44PM >>>

More than likely the sensitivity of the D60 suffers with the added noise

reduction. Canon is able to reduce noise since the terrestial night time

shots ( like that bridge shot ) are still very bright in comparision to

the faint nebula PICs we take. My guess is when you point it at M42, it

going to be a long exposure, past 4 minutes, and then the noise will

start to creep back in. It will probably be useless for faint objects.

Not to mention the guiding problem since there is no autoguide.



It's still a transistional phase for digital SLR photography. It's a

step closer to the SBIG cameras; but not enough to be a substitute. I'd

say we have 2 more iterations ( 2 years ) of digital SLR to go through

before they are viable as a deepsky camera. If I didn't already own a

digital camera, the new D60 would be my choice. We may see in the next

iteration a full frame SLR Canon ( D90 ?? ).



Joe









Ray Gralak wrote: >

> Hi Mike,

>

> I wonder if the reason the camera is noise free is that the factory creates master

> dark and bias frames to subtract from the image? If so temp variations could

> result in variations in the quality of the images. Also, if they didn't stretch the

> sample images like we would do when processing then maybe there may be more

> noise than you think. Lastly I wonder what the depth of the A/D converter is? I

> know my Nikon has 12-bits but that is still less than 16-bits in many of the

> CCD cameras. Looking forward to seeing your results when you get one!

>

> -Ray

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Mike C" mike@...>

> To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com>

> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:57 AM

> Subject: Re: [ap-ug] affordable astro cam?

>

> >

> > Yes, I essentially agree, Ray.

> >

> > I find it exciting though, because 30 second exposures on my D30 showed

> > the Orion Nebula's green and pink lights just starting to show off the classic

> > shape of M42. (With horrible digital noise.) In contrast, shots on the D60 will

> > be "practically noise free" at the same ISO, and allow at least eight times longer

> > exposures still without any of that offending noise. I am positive it will see

> > pleasingly deep in M42 with eight times as long to collect photons!

> >

> > Truly a digital camera revolution is under foot.

> >

> > Somehow Canon managed to both shrink the pixel area by 50% to 6 micron,

> > then present the same ISO "film speeds" with half the photons to work

> > with, and finally got rid of the noise! I am insanely excited about the specs.

> >

> > I dont think it replaces the long exposure capabilities of a cooled SBIG

> > camera either, but for $1900, a 6 megapixel "noise free" array of 6 micron

> > pixels capable of stunning four minute exposures is definitely going to

> > cause a stir in amateur astronomy.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Mike

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > Hi Mike,

> > >

> > > Seems like a nice camera. Looks like Canon is sorting out their

> > > color "problems" with this new camera. Too bad I have all Nikon

> > > lenses. By the way I don't think this camera (or any other) will

> > > likely outperform a cooled CCD camera for long exposures (even as

> > > little as several minute exposures).

> > >

> > > Only chance is on bright objects like the moon and filtered sun where

> > > the exposure is small. The staggering of colored pixels reduces the

> > > resolution of the camera versus a monochome camera + filters. Lastly, pixel

> > > size does not make a difference except to change the image scale.

> > > Smaller pixels effectively increase the focal length. Using a longer

> > > focal length to compensate will give the same detail. Larger pixels

> > > will reduce the exposure time needed at the same focal length.

> > >

> > > -Ray

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> > see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

> >

> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >

> >

> >

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/







----------------------------

#10946 Mar 25, 2002

My opinion is there will be an evolution of digital SLRs that will

approach the deepsky digital cameras capabililties. They will get better

and better in the noise reduction and PIC resolution; but the QE will

not come close to today's cooled chips being used by the Astro camera

marketplace. The Sensitivity will probably be good enough in a few years

to handle most of the brighter M objects with small amounts of noise on

long exposures ( maybe 10 minutes ). And then you could also subtract

out a noise frame for the balance. They will be convient for quick

astrophotography. The digital SLR cameras will get better for our hobby

only because technology gets better.



Joe







Woodrow W. Campbell, Jr. wrote: >

> My guess is that you won't see Canon or Nikon pushing much further than where the D60 is in terms of dark currents because very little photography (as opposed to astrophotography), even by professionals, requires digital exposures of longer than 30 seconds (which is the equivalent of several, if not many, minutes of film exposure because of reciprocity failure).

>

> >>> astrojoe@... 03/25/02 02:44PM >>>

> More than likely the sensitivity of the D60 suffers with the added noise

> reduction. Canon is able to reduce noise since the terrestial night time

> shots ( like that bridge shot ) are still very bright in comparision to

> the faint nebula PICs we take. My guess is when you point it at M42, it

> going to be a long exposure, past 4 minutes, and then the noise will

> start to creep back in. It will probably be useless for faint objects.

> Not to mention the guiding problem since there is no autoguide.

>

> It's still a transistional phase for digital SLR photography. It's a

> step closer to the SBIG cameras; but not enough to be a substitute. I'd

> say we have 2 more iterations ( 2 years ) of digital SLR to go through

> before they are viable as a deepsky camera. If I didn't already own a

> digital camera, the new D60 would be my choice. We may see in the next

> iteration a full frame SLR Canon ( D90 ?? ).

>

> Joe

>

> Ray Gralak wrote:

> >

> > Hi Mike,

> >

> > I wonder if the reason the camera is noise free is that the factory creates master

> > dark and bias frames to subtract from the image? If so temp variations could

> > result in variations in the quality of the images. Also, if they didn't stretch the

> > sample images like we would do when processing then maybe there may be more

> > noise than you think. Lastly I wonder what the depth of the A/D converter is? I

> > know my Nikon has 12-bits but that is still less than 16-bits in many of the

> > CCD cameras. Looking forward to seeing your results when you get one!

> >

> > -Ray

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: "Mike C" mike@...>

> > To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com>

> > Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:57 AM

> > Subject: Re: [ap-ug] affordable astro cam?

> >

> > >

> > > Yes, I essentially agree, Ray.

> > >

> > > I find it exciting though, because 30 second exposures on my D30 showed

> > > the Orion Nebula's green and pink lights just starting to show off the classic

> > > shape of M42. (With horrible digital noise.) In contrast, shots on the D60 will

> > > be "practically noise free" at the same ISO, and allow at least eight times longer

> > > exposures still without any of that offending noise. I am positive it will see

> > > pleasingly deep in M42 with eight times as long to collect photons!

> > >

> > > Truly a digital camera revolution is under foot.

> > >

> > > Somehow Canon managed to both shrink the pixel area by 50% to 6 micron,

> > > then present the same ISO "film speeds" with half the photons to work

> > > with, and finally got rid of the noise! I am insanely excited about the specs.

> > >

> > > I dont think it replaces the long exposure capabilities of a cooled SBIG

> > > camera either, but for $1900, a 6 megapixel "noise free" array of 6 micron

> > > pixels capable of stunning four minute exposures is definitely going to

> > > cause a stir in amateur astronomy.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Mike

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > Hi Mike,

> > > >

> > > > Seems like a nice camera. Looks like Canon is sorting out their

> > > > color "problems" with this new camera. Too bad I have all Nikon

> > > > lenses. By the way I don't think this camera (or any other) will

> > > > likely outperform a cooled CCD camera for long exposures (even as

> > > > little as several minute exposures).

> > > >

> > > > Only chance is on bright objects like the moon and filtered sun where

> > > > the exposure is small. The staggering of colored pixels reduces the

> > > > resolution of the camera versus a monochome camera + filters. Lastly, pixel

> > > > size does not make a difference except to change the image scale.

> > > > Smaller pixels effectively increase the focal length. Using a longer

> > > > focal length to compensate will give the same detail. Larger pixels

> > > > will reduce the exposure time needed at the same focal length.

> > > >

> > > > -Ray

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> > > see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

> > >

> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> > see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

> >

> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/







----------------------------

#10952 Mar 25, 2002

Hi Mike,

>

> Seems like a nice camera. Looks like Canon is sorting out their

> color "problems" with this new camera. Too bad I have all Nikon

> lenses. By the way I don't think this camera (or any other) will

> likely outperform a cooled CCD camera for long exposures (even as

> little as several minute exposures).

>

> Only chance is on bright objects like the moon and filtered sun where

> the exposure is small. The staggering of colored pixels reduces the

> resolution of the camera versus a monochome camera + filters. Lastly, pixel

> size does not make a difference except to change the image scale.

> Smaller pixels effectively increase the focal length. Using a longer

> focal length to compensate will give the same detail. Larger pixels

> will reduce the exposure time needed at the same focal length.

>

> -Ray

>

>



Nikon has announced the D100, an F100 based digital camera with 6

megapioxels, chip size same as D1. It is supposed to be available this

summer, so it remains to be seen what the price is and how it performs.



--

Joel M. Moskowitz, M.D.

7 (total) eclipses and counting



----------------------------

#10956 Mar 26, 2002

You buying one ? :-) I know, silly question.....



Joe



Joel Moskowitz wrote:

> Nikon has announced the D100, an F100 based digital camera with 6

> megapioxels, chip size same as D1. It is supposed to be available this

> summer, so it remains to be seen what the price is and how it performs.

>

> --

> Joel M. Moskowitz, M.D.

> 7 (total) eclipses and counting

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



----------------------------

#10958 Mar 26, 2002

Nice camera



www.nikonusa.com/usa_product/product.jsp?cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25206



----- Original Message -----

From: "joe" astrojoe@...>

To: ap-ug@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 9:44 AM

Subject: Re: [ap-ug] affordable astro cam?





> You buying one ? :-) I know, silly question.....

>

> Joe

>

> Joel Moskowitz wrote:

>

> > Nikon has announced the D100, an F100 based digital camera with 6

> > megapioxels, chip size same as D1. It is supposed to be available this

> > summer, so it remains to be seen what the price is and how it performs.

> >

> > --

> > Joel M. Moskowitz, M.D.

> > 7 (total) eclipses and counting

> >

> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> > see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

> >

> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, or for general information on the ap-ug list

> see groups.yahoo.com/group/ap-ug

>

> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>

>



----------------------------

#10971 Mar 26, 2002

In a message dated 3/25/2002 8:56:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,

mike@... writes:



> I think the circuit board traces in this picture

> subtend about the same angle that the planet Mars does currently from

> Earth.

>



Maybe you need to go into microscopy instead of astronomy?



Speaking of Mars, I imaged it along with the comet last Friday. If you want

to see what it looks like, I have it posted in the apug Photos section, last

image. I'm not a Mars observer, so I don't know what these markings are. I

took 30 subframes of each color in rapid succession. The images were then

combined and processed with Maxim DL.



Roland Christen





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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